MapTool Tangent

A "blog" of sorts to track development progress, discuss design theory, etc.
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heruca
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MapTool Tangent

Post by heruca » Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:37 am

--- Thread Split from Development Update by Omni ---
trevor, on the MapTool forums, regarding the latest MT release wrote:- I needed lookup tables for a game I want to play, so I threw some in.
This image came to mind when I read that. :roll:

Congrats, Trevor. You're really fast, managing to implement this feature and release it within just two days of my posting the feature announcement (above). What's next on the drawing board for MapTool? Visual die rolling? Trigger icons? Flash support?
Last edited by heruca on Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
:arrow: Please help spread the word about BRPG and BGE, and never hesitate to tell me how I can make them better suit your gaming needs.

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Post by trevor » Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:31 am

You know, it's funny, I have an email dated a week and a half ago, from a forum member at rptools.net, one that does not frequent this forum, that specifically asked for crit tables. A day later, I decided to play a POD racing game, but needed a crit table to do it. I have IM histories that document the discussion of this very feature with several people.

These _all_ date _before_ your announcement. So, please, save the "copy me" antics.

That said, speaking of copying, if you take the brpg feature list from the past several builds, and then look at the upcoming features that you say are upcoming, about 80% are already in MT, and mostly unique to MT. Additionally, I have several documented cases where we talk about stuff at rptools, with posts from you in that thread, then you come back and post them as unique ideas here.

If you want to open up the Who is Copying Who discussion, I'd be happy to :)

Didn't you say it was a feature race ? Having trouble keeping up ?

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Post by dorpond » Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:09 pm

heruca wrote:
trevor, on the MapTool forums, regarding the latest MT release wrote:- I needed lookup tables for a game I want to play, so I threw some in.
This image came to mind when I read that. :roll:

Congrats, Trevor. You're really fast, managing to implement this feature and release it within just two days of my posting the feature announcement (above). What's next on the drawing board for MapTool? Visual die rolling? Trigger icons? Flash support?
Whoah, I have to step in here guys. Heruca, I think you are being way to over reactive here. Trevor inplements stuff that either:
A: The mass majority of the community wants NOW.
B: An upcoming game needs. For example when Snikle started hosting all those aliens games. Recall, there was a HUGE release of new stuff that only really pertained to the game - things they needed to make that game better.

Trevor has been talking with me weeks ago about a POD Racing game he wanted to throw. He told me he wanted to implement tables. I didn't even know what he meant by tables but he was so into implementing them for this POD game he wants to run.

Trevor doesn't look to steal your stuff, Heruca. Trust me when I say this.

Now, that aside, I did have to laugh Heruca at your accusation though. Don't you find it kind of funny because just a few weeks ago on Sep 11, you posted this:
heruca wrote:In v1.0.9, it's now possible to rotate objects in 15-degree increments, by holding down the Control key while rotating the unit. This will provide finer rotation control for those who need it.

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Post by heruca » Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:27 pm

Well, maybe I am being paranoid and over-reactive, but you have to admit the timing is a scary-crazy coincidence. AFAIK, no other VT had easy access to user-defined tables (although some VTs probably already support coding them in via XML scripting). I thought my implementation was going to be unique to VTs, at least for a little while. Guess not.

Dorpond, I'm curious as to why you posted the quote about rotating objects in 15-degree increments, though. Is that something that was recently added to MT (or has been there for some time)? If so, I wasn't aware of it (although I am aware of the free-rotate function where you use the mousewheel). I simply added that feature to BRPG because, as I recently stated in another post, I want Battlegrounds to support playing Car Wars, and that game uses a Turning Key object that needs to be rotated in 15-degree increments. As with Snikle's Aliens game, this is simply an "upcoming needs" situation.
Last edited by heruca on Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by tenkar » Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:29 pm

Generally, speaking, I like to see developers in a friendly competition... it keeps them sharp. I would expect there is a lot of independent thinking that runs congruent with that of other developers... great minds think alike. I also suspect there are times of "gee, now that i see how x does y, that could work in when i'm developing".

Since i don't have the skills that any of these parties have, i'm just very thankful they are building programs that can be enjoyed by folks like myself ;)

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Post by trevor » Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:37 pm

heruca wrote:I'm curious as to why you posted the quote about rotating objects in 15-degree increments, though. Is that something that was recently added to MT (or has been there for some time)? If so, I wasn't aware of it
You do realize that this statement completely makes your argument that I copied from you moot: If this statement is true, then how can you claim that mine is not ?

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Post by Omnidon » Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:11 pm

One who searches for anomalies will always find them. It is far better to search for patterns. If there was a pattern of MapTool implementing BRPG features going on here, then I think everyone would be using MapTool instead.

I don't think heruca's original post was meant to give offense. I believe it was meant as joke stemming from his own chagrin over being beaten to the punch.

The VT market has such a huge variety of needs that I don't believe any single VT will ever rise to fill the entire niche. The vast majority of both current and future BRPG features have been based on user suggestions. I know because I have been collecting those suggestions, as well as contributing a sizable portion of them.

MapTool and BRPG share many of the same users in their communities, and it is inevitable that they will both hear many of the same feature requests. While the order of implementation greatly depends on the styles and capabilities of the developers, it is not surprising when both developers react to the same, strong user outcry at the same time.

heruca has always encouraged the expansion of the VT community. heruca keeps a comprehensive list of competitor VTs on his home page and does not hesitate to refer new users to it if they are not completely satisfied with BRPG.

If I had the time, I would gladly analyze and post comprehensive suggestions for every single VT on the market, but I don't have time for that. I picked the one I felt had the most potential, and posted my ideas here, but I would gladly invite any other VT developer to come read them. I, for one, would be happy if other developers had to come here to get their ideas, since it would mean that this forum has more activity and constructive ideas than their own.

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Re: MapTool Tangeant

Post by snikle » Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:29 pm

heruca wrote:What's next on the drawing board for MapTool? Visual die rolling? Trigger icons? Flash support?
Actually, I have been hitting trevor up for visual dice rolling (we could all say both of you would be copying FG then btw) and flash support since about January. If (and when) he does implement them, I doubt it will be because of anything to do with BG, but more with him being tired of hearing me talk about it.

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Post by snikle » Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:33 pm

And I would like to add that all the VTTs will inherently copy features off each other, they would be STUPID not to and loose potential (or already won) audiences. Competition is a good thing IMO.

You are both doing great jobs with your particular software, I for one bet that both programs kick WotC's (censored).

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Post by heruca » Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:49 pm

Welcome, Snikle. (It's about time you showed up here! :P)

I agree, competition is a good thing, and some common-ground features are a given in the VT market.
:arrow: Please help spread the word about BRPG and BGE, and never hesitate to tell me how I can make them better suit your gaming needs.

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Post by oleingva » Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:01 pm

The most important thing is not to beat each other . . . but to beat WotC. :twisted:

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Post by Full Bleed » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:39 pm

Shoot, I want to see the best features of BRPG, Maptool, Klooge, FG, and WotC's GT in one app. :p

For example, I really wish MT would "copy" Klooge's pause-to-drop-waypoints (so I could use the middle mouse button for something else.)

I wish BRPG would "copy" MT's vision blocking functionality and movement measuring.

I wish both BRPG and MT would "copy" Fantasy Ground's awesome die roller.

I wish MT would use BRPG's "sliding token" effect (or something similar.)

I wish BRPG and MT would steal WotC's 2D map on a 3D plane engine so I could whirl around a map and look at it from any angle instead of just top-down (no 3D tokens please.)

I wish BRPG and MT both had some kind of approved-move system.

And the list goes on and on and on...


The reality is that when looking at what MT and BRPG have plans to do, probably 90% of it is common ground. Which makes sense as they both have similar goals (i.e. to make a "rules-agnostic" VTT.) Mostly it's going to be a matter of how each does it, not "who does it first."

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Post by snikle » Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:53 pm

heruca wrote:Welcome, Snikle. (It's about time you showed up here! :P)
Sorry dude, been so freaking busy in rl I hardly have to do much beyond the gaming I am finally getting in, plus as I have only used BRPG a handful of times, but not on a regular basis, I probably have little to add to discussions on it.

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Post by Farland » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:05 pm

In my opinion, you guys should be taking cues from each other. That way you'll both build better products. Then who wins? We (the user base) do!

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Post by Balesir » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:26 am

Full Bleed wrote:Shoot, I want to see the best features of BRPG, Maptool, Klooge, FG, and WotC's GT in one app. :p
Amen to that! :D
Full Bleed wrote:I wish BRPG would "copy" MT's vision blocking functionality and movement measuring.
Yep - to see this sort of thing as 'copying' when a user (i.e. me) has been rooting for it since before MT ever had it is hardly fair.

Guys, you are making a defined and fairly complex product, kinda like a car. If both your models have windscreen washers and wipers and you both decide a CD player and then an mpeg player would be cool it's hardly a surprise. For any system-agnostic VTT user-definable tables are pretty much 'electric seats with memory' as far as I can see - every deluxe model should have it 'cos it's not rocket science...

As an aside, one thing that really bugs me when I buy a car is when Ford, say, have windscreen wipers or an internal light that is a poor design because they "don't want to be seen as copying Honda (or whoever)". That sort of 'we don't mind being crap as long as we're different' approach is just retarded, IMO.
Balesir

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Post by mahhand » Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:03 pm

I for one am looking forward to seeing posts from heruca on the development of BG right now here. Here is to hope that this rant ends and its back to business. I am really looking forward to BG next release. Heruca has been working his tail off on adding soooo many cool new features and I really want to play with them.

werd

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Post by Kepli » Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:12 pm

Full Bleed wrote: I wish BRPG would "copy" MT's vision blocking functionality ...
The idea for this was already discussed with both Heruca and Trevor before it was implemented in MT. I really like how MT handles it and such an option is indeed what BRPG needs too. It is probably on one of the lists :wink:
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Post by zWolf » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:35 am

I just wanted to post that I LOL'd at the big Mac poster in the pic heheh, I hadn't seen that one before - hilarious!

I really liked that list that Full Bleed had going on hehe - that should be posted on all the VTT's sites... or at least in a sticky over at FUM.

PS - kepli those badges are COOL in your sig... I gotta see if I can get me something going on like that!

zWolf -out.

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