So....game three using BGRPG....

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So....game three using BGRPG....

Post by Shayd3000 » Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:18 pm

So...played another session using BGRPG. Actually, this isn't our only game since my last post, but the first time we needed to get into tactical combat.

The game was a total disaster. I'm not sure if the update to 1.7 did it, or what. IN the end, I lost 2 hours of game time trying to solve problems.

First, maps still fail to load from media asset bundles. I created one exactly as per your instructions, saving the encounter then creating the bundle and then not opening the encounter again (and thus saving it), so that the same encounter was the same one the media bundle was created from.

So...I loaded the encounter, and it started transmitting maps. The transmission was horrible. The worst I've ever seen. In the end, I had to purge media, the manually load the media asset bundle. On one PC I had to do this twice, because when I loaded the encounter, everything came in great, then all of a sudden huge black bands appeared on the map! This is my smallest map yet, definitely under 2meg.

At this point, I am convinced that I now have to manually preload the maps on everyone's machine to make this work. This is unfortunate because I was considering allowing a remote player to join.

Which brings me to the next point, after about an hour, BGRPG kills my internet. PC's hooked up to BGRPG on my local network all lose the internet and have to reboot to get back on. This only happens when I run BGRPG.

Has BGRPG been tested on Win7 or Vista? The hosting PC is an Alienware M15 running Win7. One of the clients is an identical setup, and the other two are fairly capable laptops running Vista. These PC's have all been on my network together on many occasions playing LOTRO and DDO fomr my network, so I don't think capability is the issue.

Item three, the stability of the program was the worst I've seen it. One player would right click to drag the map, and it would stick. Left clicking, double clicking, right clicking again, hitting enter, nothing would take the player out of drag mode. The only way to do it was to close the application. Another player had to wait 15 - 30 seconds between hitting a key to send move commands to his character. Oh, they would all buffer, but it took that long for the character to move. Refresh lag between all the machines was between 15 seconds and 1 minute, sometimes more. Yes, I recycled my network and rebooted all the machines just to make sure nothing was up.

Oh, if a figure has it's portrait set to the token, when you mouse over the figure, it clears the fog of war mask. Nice way to reveal my dungeon.

Anyway, forgive my frustration, but today's game was a total disaster. I will look at reverting back to 1.6m and trying some tests this week - but we only get to play once every two weeks, and I'm not going to spend most of my game session frustrated. When BGRPG does work, it is a thing of beauty - but 6 minutes of awesomeness followed by 60 minutes of frustration is not something I can sustain too long.

Thoughts?

George

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Re: So....game three using BGRPG....

Post by heruca » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:39 am

Shayd3000 wrote:The game was a total disaster. I'm not sure if the update to 1.7 did it, or what.
I doubt that it was the update to v1.7.
Shayd3000 wrote:First, maps still fail to load from media asset bundles. I created one exactly as per your instructions, saving the encounter then creating the bundle and then not opening the encounter again (and thus saving it), so that the same encounter was the same one the media bundle was created from.

So...I loaded the encounter, and it started transmitting maps.
Please send me the Encounter file and the media asset bundle file for testing.
Shayd3000 wrote:The transmission was horrible. The worst I've ever seen.
In regards to network code, and specifically map transfer code, nothing has changed in a long time. I'm not sure why you are seeing worse results now compared to your prior game sessions.
Shayd3000 wrote:In the end, I had to purge media, the manually load the media asset bundle.
Good call, from a troubleshooting standpoint. That is exactly what I would have recommended.
Shayd3000 wrote:On one PC I had to do this twice, because when I loaded the encounter, everything came in great, then all of a sudden huge black bands appeared on the map!
This would seem to indicate that the map media was not purged, for some reason, and this PC was trying to display a map that it had received in a prior peer-to-peer transfer that went bad.
Shayd3000 wrote:This is my smallest map yet, definitely under 2meg.
Keep in mind that any image compression is lost when a map is imported into BRPG. It's entirely possible that a 200KB JPG (for example) balloons into an over-2MB image.

In any case, map transfers are segmented specifically in order to overcome the 2MB-per-network-message limitation.
Shayd3000 wrote:At this point, I am convinced that I now have to manually preload the maps on everyone's machine to make this work. This is unfortunate because I was considering allowing a remote player to join.
Manually importing the media bundles on each PC is a possible solution, but you shouldn't have to go to that extreme. I won't know for sure until I see your Encounter file, but it is possible that all your pain and suffering last session was caused by one simple, possibly Windows-only, bug. If the problem is simply that the name of the media asset bundle file is not being saved in the Encounter, I can teach you a 10-second fix to get around the problem until the bug is fixed in the next release.

You might also consider using server-based maps.
Shayd3000 wrote:Which brings me to the next point, after about an hour, BGRPG kills my internet. PC's hooked up to BGRPG on my local network all lose the internet and have to reboot to get back on. This only happens when I run BGRPG.
I don't know what is up with that. I think you're the only one who has reported this problem, so I doubt it is a widespread issue; you also reported here that the problem doesn't manifest every game session. I can't think of any possible cause for this behavior, and for it being specific to BRPG. If it was a bad router, for example, it should affect all programs, not just BRPG.
Shayd3000 wrote:Has BGRPG been tested on Win7 or Vista?
Not by me, personally, as I don't have either of those operating systems (or even a PC capable of running them), but other users have reported that BRPG works fine on those versions of Windows.
Shayd3000 wrote:Item three, the stability of the program was the worst I've seen it. One player would right click to drag the map, and it would stick. Left clicking, double clicking, right clicking again, hitting enter, nothing would take the player out of drag mode. The only way to do it was to close the application.
Was Fog of War enabled? Perhaps you've discovered a bug.

The only time something like this has ever happened to me was when I was using a wireless mouse and the batteries on it died right during a map drag (so the mouse button release event was never transmitted).

Perhaps I can add in some code that automatically ends a map-drag operation if BRPG loses focus (i.e., ALT-Tab to another app to force the map drag to end).
Shayd3000 wrote:Another player had to wait 15 - 30 seconds between hitting a key to send move commands to his character. Oh, they would all buffer, but it took that long for the character to move. Refresh lag between all the machines was between 15 seconds and 1 minute, sometimes more. Yes, I recycled my network and rebooted all the machines just to make sure nothing was up.
There's either something fishy going on with your network, or some sort of endless loop was occurring with media transfer (for example, an over-2MB image or audio clip being sent repeatedly and always failing).

BRPG shouldn't have significant network lag/delay, especially on a LAN. Anything over a second or two delay is probably indicative of a problem somewhere.

Fog of War has to re-render after every token move, so moving the figure with the mouse may be preferable to pressing a movement hotkey 20 times.
Shayd3000 wrote:Oh, if a figure has it's portrait set to the token, when you mouse over the figure, it clears the fog of war mask. Nice way to reveal my dungeon.
I will need to confirm this, but you may have discovered a bug. In which case I shall fix it ASAP.
Shayd3000 wrote:Anyway, forgive my frustration, but today's game was a total disaster. I will look at reverting back to 1.6m and trying some tests this week - but we only get to play once every two weeks, and I'm not going to spend most of my game session frustrated. When BGRPG does work, it is a thing of beauty - but 6 minutes of awesomeness followed by 60 minutes of frustration is not something I can sustain too long.

Thoughts?

George
I can understand your frustration, and I'm sorry your game session was a disaster. I doubt reverting to v1.6m will solve anything, but by all means give it a shot if you think it might help.

I suggest we set up a mutually-agreeable time to run a troubleshooting session (just you and me, not with your players; I can log on with an additional computer if you think that will affect anything). Email me or PM me to schedule this.

At the very least, I should be able to help you get your media bundles to auto-load, which should address a large part of your frustration. And if I can experience some of the other issues you encountered first-hand, it will probably help me find the cause and allow me to fix it faster.
:arrow: Please help spread the word about BRPG and BGE, and never hesitate to tell me how I can make them better suit your gaming needs.

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Re: So....game three using BGRPG....

Post by Kazander » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:42 am

heruca wrote:
Shayd3000 wrote:Item three, the stability of the program was the worst I've seen it. One player would right click to drag the map, and it would stick. Left clicking, double clicking, right clicking again, hitting enter, nothing would take the player out of drag mode. The only way to do it was to close the application.
Was Fog of War enabled? Perhaps you've discovered a bug.

The only time something like this has ever happened to me was when I was using a wireless mouse and the batteries on it died right during a map drag (so the mouse button release event was never transmitted).

Perhaps I can add in some code that automatically ends a map-drag operation if BRPG loses focus (i.e., ALT-Tab to another app to force the map drag to end).
I've had this happen; right click always ends it for me though. It seems to happen (I think) when I get a bit exuberant and allow my mouse cursor to drag outside the BRPG window.
heruca wrote:
Shayd3000 wrote:Another player had to wait 15 - 30 seconds between hitting a key to send move commands to his character. Oh, they would all buffer, but it took that long for the character to move. Refresh lag between all the machines was between 15 seconds and 1 minute, sometimes more. Yes, I recycled my network and rebooted all the machines just to make sure nothing was up.
There's either something fishy going on with your network, or some sort of endless loop was occurring with media transfer (for example, an over-2MB image or audio clip being sent repeatedly and always failing).

BRPG shouldn't have significant network lag/delay, especially on a LAN. Anything over a second or two delay is probably indicative of a problem somewhere.

Fog of War has to re-render after every token move, so moving the figure with the mouse may be preferable to pressing a movement hotkey 20 times.
I've had some very serious lag introduced when I mistakenly allowed some transparency to be introduced into my background objects (which I was using as maps). Took me quite a while to figure that one out.

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Post by Shayd3000 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:47 pm

First off I need to say, after reading my post it seems quite rude. I apologize, while I was frustrated at the time I had not intended on flaming or yelling at anyone - but it certainly does read that way.

Also, I apologize for my long delay in responding. I had an unexpected stay in the hospital for a couple of days - nothing wrong found though and everything is good to go and all parts are intact.

Okay, I will not back out of 1.7. I will try and get you those files asap.

On the network lag, I did reset my LAN - this did not do anything to fix. I see where it shows that the internet interference has not been happening to me every time, and I can't imagine why in the life of me I said that. It has happened in every game session I have run so far. It did not happen to me when I demo'd / experimented with the software to see if it would suit me. My time in the software was not much over an hour each time though. When this happens, I have to reboot each client and reset my router. It has never happened to me in any other application. LAN still up, just loses visibility to the internet.

I have not played with transparencies at all - not saying it couldn't be there, but I have not intentionally done anything with them.

On teh one that did start striping, I had actually verified the media was purged by going back into the purge media command, at which point it showed me there was no media to purge. The thing is, the map came up complete when that client logged in and the encounter started after teh manual load. It was when the other clients jumped back in that had not been manually loaded that the map on the one PC REGRESSED and actually...reloaded? Seriously, the map was displaying correctly on the client, and as soon as other PC's started to receive the map transmission (I had purged media on them, but not manually loaded the map) teh one client immediately lost the map it had showing on the screen and picked up a copy with stripes.

Yes, FOW was enabled. On this map, there is a building which I have masked with FOW set to manual only. Once in the building, I did reset FOW to be manual + dynamic.

Yes, the network behavior was fishy, which is why I completely rebooted it.

The other client, well he may have gotten a bit exuberant pressing the move key - though I did get him to knock it off fairly quickly. Dragging with a mouse is problematic. It works very well on the high-end PC's, but on the slightly lower end ones (1.6ghz processor, 3 meg RAM, ATI Radeon 1100x - I think - video) mouse dragging of a figure was almost impossible but the button movement works great. That specific PC though may need to be cleaned up a bit, I plan to look at it at my next session to eliminate any performance issues in that specific client. I am concerned though that perhaps a client performance issue was affecting everyone in the session. I have not verified if that particular PC was experiencing a performance issue.

My map did have an animated fire in it, which was only animating on my PC. It was one of the ones that came with BGRPG, but perhaps the animation contributed. I thought previous maps had animation too, but I can't remember off the top of my head.

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Post by Shayd3000 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:33 pm

Here are my files as promised.
Attachments
AP1 - Sandpoint Glassworks.zip
Media asset bundle
(28.26 MiB) Downloaded 238 times
AP1 - Sandpoint Glassworks.bge
Encounter file
(12.61 KiB) Downloaded 293 times

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Post by Shayd3000 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:38 pm

Okay, I see where I said internet issue did not occur. True. Interesting, so the commonality seems to be that when I start transmitting maps I lose the internet.

The session I did not have the problem in, I did not send any maps.

The demo sessions I used the pre-installed maps, so again, no map transmission.

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Post by heruca » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:06 pm

Fixed encounter file sent. Check your email.

Very nice-looking map, by the way. :)
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Post by heruca » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:14 pm

Shayd3000 wrote:I apologize for my long delay in responding. I had an unexpected stay in the hospital for a couple of days - nothing wrong found though and everything is good to go and all parts are intact.
Glad to hear that everything's alright.
Shayd3000 wrote:On teh one that did start striping, I had actually verified the media was purged by going back into the purge media command, at which point it showed me there was no media to purge. The thing is, the map came up complete when that client logged in and the encounter started after teh manual load. It was when the other clients jumped back in that had not been manually loaded that the map on the one PC REGRESSED and actually...reloaded? Seriously, the map was displaying correctly on the client, and as soon as other PC's started to receive the map transmission (I had purged media on them, but not manually loaded the map) teh one client immediately lost the map it had showing on the screen and picked up a copy with stripes.
Sounds like a bug. A player client should never accept a p2p map transfer if it already has the map locally stored. I will try to fix this in the next release.
Shayd3000 wrote:Dragging with a mouse is problematic. It works very well on the high-end PC's, but on the slightly lower end ones (1.6ghz processor, 3 meg RAM, ATI Radeon 1100x - I think - video) mouse dragging of a figure was almost impossible but the button movement works great. That specific PC though may need to be cleaned up a bit, I plan to look at it at my next session to eliminate any performance issues in that specific client. I am concerned though that perhaps a client performance issue was affecting everyone in the session.
I suggest that you lower the FoW Resolution on the slow PCs.
Shayd3000 wrote:My map did have an animated fire in it, which was only animating on my PC. It was one of the ones that came with BGRPG, but perhaps the animation contributed. I thought previous maps had animation too, but I can't remember off the top of my head.
You had 3 "light glow" animations in the Encounter you sent me. I think that those, in combination with the animated fire and the FoW, slowed performance to a crawl on the slower PCs. If you can do without the light glow animations, I think that will help a lot.
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Post by Shayd3000 » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:38 pm

Thanks.

FOW is at low on the slowest of the PC's.

Light Glow - hmmmph - thought I had gotten rid of those. That would certainly explain a lot. I didn't realize those were animated either - my intention had been to have an object projecting light to account for the fires.

The map isn't one of mine :( though I wish I could claim responsibility. It is because of maps like that and the ones that I have done that I wanted to get away from using the battle mat and go to using Battlegrounds in FtF play.

Thanks!

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Post by Shayd3000 » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:46 pm

A quick update:

I just created another encounter...steps I used:

1. Save Encounter
2. Create Media Bundle
3. Exit Battlegrounds

I manually checked the encounter file - the media bundle name was not in there. So, for some reason, it is not getting added to the encounter. I manually added the entry, and will let you know how it goes this Sunday at the game.

Dungeon time! This will be a very good test of BGRPG.

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Post by heruca » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:52 pm

OK, it would appear that it's a bug, then, if the media bundle's name isn't making into the saved Encounter. You should be fine next session with the manual fix you performed, and I'll see about getting a new BRPG release started.
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Post by Shayd3000 » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:28 pm

Did you ever fix that players selecting enhanced vision rather than light source issue? I know - I should just have them try it....

Good news is no animated graphics in my next map :)

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Post by heruca » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:32 pm

Shayd3000 wrote:Did you ever fix that players selecting enhanced vision rather than light source issue?
I don't think I changed anything in that regard, lately. What's the issue again? That you don't want players to be able to change their vision type, but you do want them to be able to change their light sources? I think a change to either of these settings is reported to the GM in the chat window, to mitigate cheating attempts.
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Re: So....game three using BGRPG....

Post by heruca » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:28 pm

heruca wrote:
Shayd3000 wrote:Oh, if a figure has it's portrait set to the token, when you mouse over the figure, it clears the fog of war mask. Nice way to reveal my dungeon.
I will need to confirm this, but you may have discovered a bug. In which case I shall fix it ASAP.
Bug confirmed. Expect a fix in the next release (v1.7a).
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Post by Shayd3000 » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:35 pm

Thanks. I'll pass this on to the Mrs. I'm sure she'll be tickled that she found a bug. :D

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Post by heruca » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:16 pm

It looks like I've managed to fix that bug today (the one that reveals the FoW masks when displaying a unit's portrait).
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Post by Shayd3000 » Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:36 pm

Awesome, thanks!

Still having a lot of trouble with black bars across my maps. Last Sunday was my next game session, almost entirely run in BG, and the maps would not load fully from the media bundles. BG did recongize the media packs, and did load the maps, but with huge black bars stripped all across. In the end I had to purge and manually load my media bundles on each player's PC.

I will try and attach my encounter file and media bundle here later in case you want to take a look at them.

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Post by heruca » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:52 pm

Shayd3000 wrote:Still having a lot of trouble with black bars across my maps.
See this post.
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Post by Shayd3000 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:19 pm

Saw it! It does look promising!

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