Issue I'm a little worried about with licensing.

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Post by Balesir » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:24 am

heruca wrote:However, subsequent releases or patches of BRPG would match up serial number 111111 with 222222 and forbid a connection between those two systems (because the program now knows that both serial numbers belong to the same person). Joe is still free, however, to host games for other people using either computer.
Would it be possible still to use my desktop as a player client using a floating license while GMing on my laptop? I can see this being useful if either (a) I am testing a scenario out prior to running it or (b) I have a player who is normally elsewhere visiting. Sorry to be picky, but this sounds potentially rather nice all around as a feature :D .
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Post by heruca » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:23 pm

Perhaps I'm not understanding the question, but if you've got a floating license, you can have an unlicensed client join. Making your licensed desktop installation unlicensed is as easy as temporarily renaming or moving the file "License.txt" from the folder where the rest of your Prefs are stored.

But I think what you're saying is that instead of forbidding a connection from a user's second license outright, it should first ask if you wish to allow the connection using your Floating License. That sounds like an excellent idea, which I'll be sure to implement. It avoids having to disable the License as I described above.
:arrow: Please help spread the word about BRPG and BGE, and never hesitate to tell me how I can make them better suit your gaming needs.

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Post by Balesir » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:53 am

Thanks for the advice on how to 'fix it', but yes, allowing an otherwise ineligible licensed copy to connect using a floating license is exactly what I meant - ta! 8)
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Post by Venger » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:50 pm

DISCLAIMER- The opinions stated in this post are strickly my own and in no way reflect the position or opinions of BRPG, or anyone in their staff

*gets on soapbox*
Rikhavok your attitude needs adjustment, and the feeling I am getting is that you are a spoiled brat

You dont need to run 10 GM clients simultaneously, and if you are running a LAN game then buy the floating license paks
If you have a 10 computer network with all the associated hardwares and "legal" licensed softwares running on them, then the cost of BRPG floating licenses should be no issue for you

Heruca has a nice product here, and if your post above is any indication of your attitude, then I would guess he doesnt need your money that badly to have to put up with your pressure tactics and complaining because tech support for you will obviously be a PITA

My apologies to the forum admins for me stating my opinions, and I am done and will not escalate this into a flame war.
And I understand if you have to nerf this post
*gets off soapbox*
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Post by riddles » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:59 pm

I think Venger what he wanted was a floating GM licence, as he wasn't sure which machine he'd run BRPG from. But you can't do that.

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Post by Venger » Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:59 pm

*grins*

Ok. I guess he seemed to me to be trying to pressure Heruca into giving in to his desire to have 10 PC's running the software and purchasing only one license.

No biggie. I hope he finds a happy solution for his dilemma. As for me, Im happy
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Post by dontadow » Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:32 pm

my opinion.

I'd actually find it more pleasant to have one code and that one code to work all the time. After I buy a product, I'd rather not have to email back and forth with the company everytime I have a harddrive crash, or need to install on another computer, or change directories. For instance, if i have a crashright before game and needto do an immediate reinstall I find myself now waiting on an email.

I notice that with MMOs and online games, two computers with the same lisence code can't connect to one another. It seems that installing something like this in the program would make it easier for the consumer and minmize on sharing (considering the fact that someone sharing a lisence would be doing so wit hthe intent on connecting with someone).

This isn't the first program I've seen this on, my frustrations actually stem from another program, also rpg related. I've actually only seen the email back and forth of the lisence with rpg products. I hope this isnt a growing trend. I really want to learn how to work the program but ...well take last week.. my htpc is two rooms away from my main computer. My htpc doesnt have internet access, so i have to manually transport hte code to the htpc from the main computer. fairly frustrating after not getting it to work for two hours (I didnt know that I"d need a different code after I changed the directory of the program). I pretty much gave up until I can set aside some time to write up the email and jot down the info for a new code request.

From a consumer standpoint, if I wasn't so excited by the program, I'd have probably gave up and tried something else out. I have an incredible amount of paitence and I could see losing customers whom have these frustrations.

Also, it makes me feel like I really don't own anything. What if something happens to the owners or hte company, my purchase is null in void if I ever have another harddrive failure or need a reboot. Its as if the product is only valid as long as there is someone whom can send me another email.

In the mean time, someone may probably figure out away to hack the program or generate a key generator for the code, but paying customers get the shaft from the hoops that have to be done with the lisence.

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Post by Omnidon » Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:30 pm

I understand your concerns dontadow, so dont let the following sound antagonistic, as I am often misinterpreted as such. ;-)
dontadow wrote:I'd actually find it more pleasant to have one code and that one code to work all the time.
Agreed, and eventually you will.
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dontadow wrote:After I buy a product, I'd rather not have to email back and forth with the company everytime I have a harddrive crash, or need to install on another computer, or change directories.

For instance, if i have a crashright before game and needto do an immediate reinstall I find myself now waiting on an email.
BRPG licenses are currently tied to a hard drive, not the registry or directory.
You can keep using the same license code as long as you have BRPG on that hard drive.

Reinstalling your OS will not affect it, although reformatting the drive can.
If you buy a new computer, you can simply put your old hard drive in the new computer.
As long as your hard drive keeps spinning, you can use your same license. ;-)

If your hard drive dies completely, then you will have to contact heruca, but it's really not as painful as you make it sound. (Though I know from experience that it is often painful for many other products.)
dontadow wrote:I notice that with MMOs and online games, two computers with the same lisence code can't connect to one another. It seems that installing something like this in the program would make it easier for the consumer and minmize on sharing (considering the fact that someone sharing a lisence would be doing so wit hthe intent on connecting with someone).
This is already in BRPG. This measure prevents a GM from sharing his license with his own playing group, but it doesn't keep him from letting a dozen other GMs use his license. I know from experience that people will give their license codes to near strangers if asked to do so.

heruca doesn't get so much business that he can afford to let that happen. ;-)
dontadow wrote:my frustrations actually stem from another program
We've all had bad experiences with software products these days, but heruca has proven to be far more reliable than most developers. I've dealt with a lot of software and customer support departments, and I have *never* seen anything close to the personal attention that heruca extends to everyone, even those who clearly don't intend to be customers.
dontadow wrote:Also, it makes me feel like I really don't own anything.
Well honestly I feel that way about all software these days. They call it a 'license' because it actually represents a *right to use* the software. Technically you really don't own anything.
Software is simply so easy to duplicate that there is no secure method of distribution that truely gives permanant and complete ownership of anything.
dontadow wrote:What if something happens to the owners or hte company, my purchase is null in void if I ever have another harddrive failure or need a reboot. Its as if the product is only valid as long as there is someone whom can send me another email.
That's true with any company. Most of the larger software companies use servers to verify your license. If they go bankrupt and their server goes down, you will not be able to activate your license.
The problem here is an unavoidable flaw in the nature of software itself. It's not something that can be blamed on the developers.

However, I imagine that if heruca was forced to give up on BRPG altogether, he would make it free.
dontadow wrote:In the mean time, someone may probably figure out away to hack the program or generate a key generator for the code, but paying customers get the shaft from the hoops that have to be done with the lisence.
Well that's just a fact of life. Security in general hurts the honest majority more than the criminal minority.
Example? Terrorists blow up airplanes so worldwide.
Airport security is greatly increased.
Millions of people have to wait hours extra in line and are forced to undergo rigorous searches just because of a few extremists.

Does all that security guarentee safety? Of course not. From a realistic point of view, the purpose of security is to discourage such actions, not prevent them.
Last edited by Omnidon on Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by heruca » Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:26 am

heruca wrote:I think what you're saying is that instead of forbidding a connection from a user's second license outright, it should first ask if you wish to allow the connection using your Floating License. That sounds like an excellent idea, which I'll be sure to implement.
Balesir, you'll be glad to know that I've implemented this feature request in v1.0.

Now, if the GM has a floating license installed and available, he/she can choose to allow (or choose to deny) a connection from an ineligible licensed copy.
:arrow: Please help spread the word about BRPG and BGE, and never hesitate to tell me how I can make them better suit your gaming needs.

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Post by Balesir » Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:54 am

heruca wrote:Balesir, you'll be glad to know that I've implemented this feature request in v1.0.

Now, if the GM has a floating license installed and available, he/she can choose to allow (or choose to deny) a connection from an ineligible licensed copy.
Excellent - thanks! Will license codes need to be renewed for v1.0? I have a game planned to start this Wednesday (but no pressure, or anything... :lol: ). If I'm renewing the license code I may well set up both desktop and laptop with 1.0 a.s.a.p. to give myself some flexibility.
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Post by heruca » Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:27 pm

License codes will not be changing for v1.0. They will work for all future versions until 2.0 (if BRPG survives that long).

The only time the codes would change is if the licensing scheme was compromised somehow.
:arrow: Please help spread the word about BRPG and BGE, and never hesitate to tell me how I can make them better suit your gaming needs.

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Post by stargazr » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:04 pm

LOL

Well I'd have to agree with Vengers "soap box", well maybe the spoiled brat was a little farther than I'd have gone :twisted: but as for the rest I think he was spot on. And I found his rather straight forward (or should I say go for the jugular) approach refreshing.

I'd also like to agree with ominidon when he was addressing some issue dontadow raised.
We've all had bad experiences with software products these days, but heruca has proven to be far more reliable than most developers. I've dealt with a lot of software and customer support departments, and I have *never* seen anything close to the personal attention that heruca extends to everyone, even those who clearly don't intend to be customers.
Once you start reading through the posts for past year+ heruca really takes customer feedback to heart. As we say in the military...He really leans forward in the foxhole!


I'm a firm believer in product loyalty...but only when there is consumer loyalty. And heruca definitely fits the bill....keep up the good work!
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Post by heruca » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:59 am

Thanks. :oops:

Hehe, I just re-read what Venger wrote. He really did go for the throat, didn't he? :lol:
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Post by Venger » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:01 am

When ya get old like I am.. ya get cranky

hehe
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Post by Full Bleed » Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:37 am

Well, you gotta know when you can't please someone. Everyone is a potential sale until they're not.


However, I can appreciate the fact that when I buy a piece of software, I want it to be portable though. I have four computers (five if you count my girlfriends.) And though they generally have fairly particular roles, which one I might have available to play with, or where I'll be might always be at game time is something of an issue.

1) Primary Computer (Main workstation and the occasional game.)
2) Secondary Computer (Secondary work station, music and video and production.)
3) HTPC (For watching movies or surfing on my Big screen, Projector, or listening to music.)
4) Laptop.
5) Girlfriend's general use computer.


I guess I could put BRPG on a portable Hard Drive, but I hate to give up the performance of some of my other systems (I didn't buy Raptor Hard drives for nothing) and I have a general distrust of data safety on portables (and generally only use them for backups.)

Maybe a floating GM key that could be put on a flash drive would be a happy medium. You can get a cheap flashdrive for almost nothing these days, and if it was really only holding the "key", we could have full installs of the rest of the software on as many computers as we wanted without compromising the security intent.

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Post by Farland » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:08 pm

Yeah, a floating GM license wouldn't be a bad idea.
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Post by heruca » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:08 pm

[begin rant]
Raise your hands if you wouldn't mind shelling out and additional $20 or so for a USB hardware dongle that would let you use the app on any computer you plug the dongle into.

OK, sarcastic question maybe. The fact is, I absolutely HATE any effort I have to spend on anti-piracy stuff, and even the current licensing scheme eats away at my development time, since I often have to stop work to generate and email license keys. It's a bother for me even more than it's a bother for all the legitimate paying customers. But I know that the RPG crowd in particular is all too ready to "share" their purchases, or not purchase something if it is available by some other means.
[/end rant]
:arrow: Please help spread the word about BRPG and BGE, and never hesitate to tell me how I can make them better suit your gaming needs.

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Post by Full Bleed » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:24 pm

heruca wrote:[begin rant]
Raise your hands if you wouldn't mind shelling out and additional $20 or so for a USB hardware dongle that would let you use the app on any computer you plug the dongle into.
$20? Probably not.

But you can get then for like $5 or less. And for some, that small cost might be worth the flexibility. I mean, what makes more sense, expecting people to buy portable hard drives or some cheap flashdrive?

Heck, here's a 1Gig stick for $0 after Rebate (you only pay shipping): http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?DPNo=4876689

There are probably some even cheaper models out there that I can make money on after rebate. ;)

Ideally, I wouldn't *want* to shell out any money for anything that makes using the program harder. But since I do understand that you want to protect your software, I *would* be willing to do it if that's what it took to have the flexibility I'd like.

Besides, I've got like 3 128-256 meg flash drives sitting around that don't even get any use. And the license file take up what? 1k? I'm also betting that most people that want the portability to begin with (people with multiple computers) probably already have a flashdrive that they can spare 1k of space on.

Isn't a flashdrive essentially a "hard drive" by most OS standards? Would modifying the licensing code to assign to a flashdrive really be all that different than assigning to a hard drive?

Just some thoughts. Not answers.

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Post by heruca » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:36 pm

I think the $5/dongle price you quoted is for when you buy thousands at a time. Not my situation. I'd also have to ship them from Argentina to the rest of the world, and no one wants to wait several weeks for their dongle, so the cost of shipping in a speedier manner would be higher. And I'd have to charge something for my time.

It's all a moot point, anyway. I would NEVER go the dongle route. That's usually only used by high-end apps (e.g., medical imaging programs) that cost several thousand dollars a copy. Besides, dongles are know to break, or even worse, break the USB port of the computer they're attached to.

Your idea of storing the license key on a Flash-drive wouldn't work, I'm afraid. BRPG would have to be entirely stored, and launched from, the Flash-drive. Way too slow, and probably somewhat unreliable.
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Post by Venger » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:36 pm

These are my experiences so far with BRPG and an EXT HDD in Face-To-Face gaming situations. I havent played with BRPG online so I cannot comment about that yet

Performance-

Having BRPG on external drive has been quite satisfactory for Face to Face gaming.
Once the client is loaded there are no speed issues, and load-time is not bad, even on my less than up-to-date laptops.

I have two laptops networked over a crossover ethernet cable to eliminate having to carry a Hub around.

My main laptop, the better of the two, runs the GM client and my various GM apps with the EXT HDD plugged into it

The lesser machine runs the player client and other Apps for the players to use

The EXT HDD is mapped/shared onto the network with certain folders which I allow the players to browse, and which also has Up-to-Date BRPG clients.


Reliability-
To insure reliability I have a second HDD with BRPG licencing on that drive as well, which is a complete backup of the main drive because I cannot afford a failure of an HDD on game day. EVERYTHING I have pertaining to the game is all on that drive.
Maps, pictures, documentation, music. Everything

Virtually, its a paperless game. The only paper we have are our various manuals, and tomes, and paper character sheets as well as an Excel charater sheet

This loss of a HDD can happen on ANY system, so if BRPG is important to your games, I advise purchasing a backup license.

So for the modest price of BRPG, it is worth having the backup of at least the GM client and a floating license. That will get you through in case of a failure in a Face-to-Face game

I simply call it "insurance"

Besides, getting an extra copy helps the dev I'm pretty sure, and for the cost of a night out getting blitzed at a club, it's worth it for the salvation of my sanity to have that backup.

With the setup I mentioned above, I can GM a game anywhere.

So in answer to the $20 question, well, it's obvious what my answer would be.

I would vote Yeah
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Post by Full Bleed » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:02 pm

heruca wrote:I think the $5/dongle price you quoted is for when you buy thousands at a time. Not my situation. I'd also have to ship them from Argentina to the rest of the world, and no one wants to wait several weeks for their dongle, so the cost of shipping in a speedier manner would be higher. And I'd have to charge something for my time.
My assumption is that we wouldn't buy the dongle from you anymore than we buy our hard drives from you. I'm assuming that the code could be done in such a way as to allow us assign the key to the flash drive in the same was it's assigned to hard drives.

It's all a moot point, anyway. I would NEVER go the dongle route. That's usually only used by high-end apps (e.g., medical imaging programs) that cost several thousand dollars a copy.
Well, "usually" doesn't really apply here does it? I mean, "usually" software isn't installation-restricted like BRPG. I think the only software I use that is (to some degree) is Windows.

Besides, dongles are know to break, or even worse, break the USB port of the computer they're attached to.
Heh, I'll break a portable hard drive before a flash drive (I've got experience! ;)) However, I will lose a flashdrive before a portable hard drive.

So, honestly, I don't know what would be more trouble for you. Creating new licenses for people who lost flashdrives or for people that need to transfer the licenses to new computers.

Your idea of storing the license key on a Flash-drive wouldn't work, I'm afraid. BRPG would have to be entirely stored, and launched from, the Flash-drive. Way too slow, and probably somewhat unreliable.
Yeah, if more than just the license would have to be stored on the flashdrive it wouldn't make sense. At least not until USB 5.0 comes out.

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Post by Omnidon » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:09 pm

I should add that *any* internal drive can be converted into an external drive.

Just search for a Hard Drive Enclosure at an online electronic store and you'll see what I'm talking about.


But anyway, I really don't think development time should be wasted on trying to improve the current licensing scheme, since BRPG will inevitably (and probably in the not-too-distant future) have to migrate to a server-based activation code anyway.

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Post by Dormouse » Sat May 19, 2007 3:24 pm

Last Autumn my main computer developed an intermittent fault. I got another one until I fixed it as I had urgent work to do. Still haven't got around to fixing it. Have been using a number of computers since then, depending on where I am, how we are swapping computers around within the family, etc. Haven't got another license code from Heruca (the situation seemed to unstable to be worth the effort); haven't stuck the relevant HD into an enclosure (though I have a number of them); I've just stuck to using BRPG in demo mode and not used it seriously at all. When I need to DM a campaign, I will contact Heruca. Until then I won't bother - I don't think it's worth getting into the emails etc every time I switch computers.

There hasn't been a problem with most software - I just plugged my registration code into the new installation and had no problems, not even with MS activation.

What I am doing is switching to a much more flexible portable setup. I now have a 4Gb usb stick for applications & a 16Gb one for data. I see software increasingly available in portable formats & the availability of a portable option has led me to upgrade a number of packages. I think typical RPG players/DMs are more likely than the average person to switch computers (or to have access to a number of them) and therefore more likely than most to switch to portable apps. I'd suggest it's worth considering these options in future developments of the licensing system and of BRPG.[/b]

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Post by heruca » Sat May 19, 2007 4:12 pm

Still, if you ever need your license codes, Dormouse, don't hesitate to request them, even if you know you might be switching computers again in a few months.

I think an external portable USB or FireWire hard drive might be the best solution in your particular situation, though.

I actually expect BRPG to be somewhat LESS portable than the typical app, since users will probably want it on their "main computer" where they download all the maps, tokens and mapping objects to. The same is true of mapping programs like Dundjinni or DungeonForge. Such programs are far less useful IMO when you don't have access to your stockpile of downloaded assets.

But I'll definitely try to come up with a much more flexible licensing scheme next time around. Preferably a more automated solution that's handled by a server.
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Post by Dormouse » Sat May 19, 2007 7:31 pm

heruca wrote:Still, if you ever need your license codes, Dormouse, don't hesitate to request them, even if you know you might be switching computers again in a few months.
Thanks. I appreciate that. :D And also appreciate how supportive you are.
heruca wrote:I think an external portable USB or FireWire hard drive might be the best solution in your particular situation, though.
As I say, I do have these. I also have a 2 TB NAS drive. You are probably right in saying that it would be the best solution for me most of the time.
heruca wrote:I actually expect BRPG to be somewhat LESS portable than the typical app, since users will probably want it on their "main computer" where they download all the maps, tokens and mapping objects to. The same is true of mapping programs like Dundjinni or DungeonForge. Such programs are far less useful IMO when you don't have access to your stockpile of downloaded assets.
You can fit a surprising amount on a 16GB usb, and these flash drives are only getting bigger. I just carry the data I think I might use with the main long-term storage being on the hard drives. At 61x61, the amount of data needed even for a BRPG campaign is fairly limited; the advantages of using any computer you want is substantial and a usb stick is much more convenient & reliable than an external HD (even a mp3 player). And, of course, BRPG does load and run perfectly well from a usb stick :D

I think I'm moving away from the idea of having a 'main computer'. In my working environments, I have a number of computers that are basically mine and others that I access depending on what other people are doing; it all depends which location I am in. At home I can see that the same situation might be developing - and if we all have everything we want set up to suit us on our usb sticks, that might well be ideal.

Photo/Video collections and progs are probably not so portable - though I do have a portable version of the GIMP. That might encourage me to use it more than the Adobe products. :shock:
heruca wrote:But I'll definitely try to come up with a much more flexible licensing scheme next time around. Preferably a more automated solution that's handled by a server.
That would probably solve the whole issue. :D :D

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